DBS Conservative Speed Multipliers Recalc edition
New base value
Basically a re-calc of the old feat was accepted, with the values of this blog accepted in , this will be replacing by @, I will be using the format style to keep things simple, no need to stretch something simple, so let's go speeding up
New Scaling
Suppressed Beerus/Base DBS Goku Post BoG - 118.25 sextillion c
SSJ Goku - 5.9125 Septillion c
SSJ2 Goku - 11.825 Septillion c
SJ3 Goku - 23.65 Septillion c
SSJG Goku - At least 18.92 Octillion c, likely far higher
Pre-Goku Black Saga SSJB Goku - At least 946 Octillion c, likely far higher
SSJB KKx10 (U6 Saga) Goku - At least 9.46 Nonillion c, likely far higher
Base Vegetto (Goku Black Saga) - At least 9.46 Nonillion c, likely far higher
SSJB Vegetto and Fusion Zamasu - At least 75.68 Undecillion c, likely far higher
SSJB Goku from Hit rematch and onwards - At least 9.46 Nonillion c, likely far higher
SSJB KKx20 Goku (beginning of ToP) - At least 189.2 Nonilion c, likely far higher
Restrained Jiren, UIO1 and UIO2 Goku - At least 75.68 Undecillion c, likely far higher
SSJB Goku (Post UIO2) - At least 75.68 Undecillion c, likely far higher
SSJB Goku KKx20 (Post UIO2) - At least 1.5136 Duodecillion c, likely far higher
Base Gogeta - At least 1.5136 Duodecillion c, likely far higher
SSJ Gogeta - At least 75.68 Duodecillion c , likely far higher
SSJB Gogeta - At least 12.1088 Quattuordecillion c, likely far higher
SSJ (Full Power) Broly - At least 12.1088 Quattuordecillion c, likely far higher
UIO3 Goku - At least 12.1088 Quattuordecillion c, likely far higher
MUI Goku and Limit Broken Jiren - At least 12.1088 Quattuordecillion c, likely far higher
Notes
- The 118.25 quadrillion c speed for Suppressed Beerus/Base DBS Goku (Post BoG) is based on the accepted calculation for .
- SSJ is officially a 50x multiplier in Daizenshuu and Super exciting guide, however more than that it is consistent with the showings in the manga as a 50x speed multiplier as well. Goku using Kaiokenx10 was being speed blitzed by 50% Frieza, and even Kaiokenx20 while using a kamehameha was at best equal to 50% Frieza's speed, yet using SSJ allowed Goku to speed blitz 50% Frieza, and even have an edge in speed over 100% Frieza, therefore it is highly consistent with the 50x multiplier assigned to it.
- SSJ2's 100x and SSJ3's 400x multipliers said in the Super exciting guide were accepted in .
- SSJG was accepted as having a minimum 160000x multiplier for being superior to a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito in this .
- Goku could barely keep up with Hit by the end of the U6 tournament even with SSBKKx10, yet defeated a Hit who was stated stronger in their second fight with SSJB alone.
- Goku could somewhat keep up with and harm a serious Jiren as a SSJB after breaking his limits for the second time with UIO2, when his previous SSJBKKx20 could do virtually nothing to Jiren before, and was literally blinked away more than once, even with a spirit bomb. So it stands to reason that SSJB post UIO2 is superior to SSJBKKx20 in the beginning of the ToP.
- Goku gained many substantial boosts from unquantifiable transformations, zenkais, breaking his limits, constant battling and training. This is acknowledged in the "at least" and "likely far higher" additions.
- We use the Kaioken multipliers because they are explicitly stated to multiply speed and power by the number stated in the technique. This further extends to SSJ fra. We continue to use Kaioken multipliers in DBS as well as the SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 multipliers.
- SSJB has been to be and to be what happens when a . Therefore it has been that SSJB would logically grant a 50x speed multiplier like SSJ does and is useable on this wiki.
- Fusion were accepted to be superior to their Fuseés maximum in Base in
- Gogeta's SSJB speed numbers should logically scale to Broly, who is touted as being around Beerus level. This is because Broly overwhelms SSJ Gogeta, and forces him to use SSJB, he outright dodges SSJB Gogeta's first energy blast volley, reacts to and blocks multiple attacks, and trades blows with him multiple times continuously coming back for more after taking multiple serious attack's head on. This shows at least somewhat comparable speed and power. Gogeta even felt the need to Kill Broly, which he would only do if Broly was a serious threat.
Immeasurable Speed Explanation (Dragon Ball Heroes)
Introduction
The purpose of this page is to compile feats, statements and explanations on why characters from qualify for Immeasurable Speed.
It should be noted that due to Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse , some scans from Xenoverse are valid and can be applied to Heroes.
- The thread where Immeasurable speed was discussed is and
Explanation
Let's go into detail on why Dragon Ball Heroes should qualify for Immeasurable Speed:
I. Dark Dragon Balls
1. The first explanation is in the scan itself; himself stated that the Dark Dragon Balls have flown beyond space-time, the word "flown" meaning they used physical flight, as they flew beyond space-time itself physically to different eras of time. Even has stated that they flew away, solidifying Mechikabura's statement. Guidebooks also support these statements.
2. herself was frustrated about the Dark Dragon Balls flying away, but Mechikabura reassured her and said that he will grant her . Demon God Power is just Dark Ki belonging to a Demon who has reached a Godly state, which increases their Ki/Power. What this means is that Towa required a power-up to go after Dark Dragon Balls, and we all know that power-ups in Dragon Ball increase , which means she needed to boost her speed to the point where she could fly beyond space-time to go after the Dark Dragon Balls.
3. Dragon Balls themselves always use physical flight as showcased with pretty much in the verse. The Dark Dragon Balls are just Dragon Balls that got pumped with Dark Ki, turning them into the Dark Dragon Balls. After getting Dark Ki which boosted their power and speed, they were now capable of flying beyond space-time. This was also shown in for the game, which also showed a Dark Dragon Ball landing in the Namek saga's era like in the manga scan album above. The Dark Dragon Balls are clearly visibly shown to have physically flown away to different eras.
4. , who is the amalgamation of the Dark Dragon Balls, his spread across the multiverse and all past, present and future, affecting them all simultaneously with the same Dark Ki that boosted the Dark Dragon Balls and their hosts' power and speed, allowing them to fly beyond space-time.
II. Xeno Trunks and Chronoa
In the album above, flew beyond time/space-time physically from the Xeno Buu era to the Xeno Cell era, and immediately saved and from getting smashed by Gravy, reacting to his attack while flying there. The trio then physically flew from the Xeno Cell era to the Xeno Buu era as we can see in the Crack of Time towards Xeno Goku's location and again reacted to a combat situation when Trunks blocked the coming attack from Demon God Buu, as combat speed is above travel/flight speed in Dragon Ball. Everything is explained in the album itself.
III. Xeno Trunks, Final Form Mira and Dark Broly
This is when , and chased each other through time, starting from Hell and going to the Demon Realm which were in different eras of time, even catching up with each other in the middle of their three-way chase.
1. The main explanation is in the album itself
2. Back to the Dark Dragon Ball point, the Dark Dragon Balls are capable of flying beyond space-time itself, and the DDB's can also possess and induce their victim with Dark Ki, in turn boosting their power and speed. With that boost, Dark Broly was now capable of flying beyond space-time like the DDBs
3. Mira didn't show the ability to fly beyond space-time before, however after fusing with Towa (who at that time is a Demon Goddess) and turning into Final Form Mira and gaining a boost in both power and speed, he started flying and chasing after Dark Broly.
4. Xeno Trunks, before becoming a Time Patroller needed to use a Time Machine to time travel, however after training with , his power and speed got boosted to the point that he was now capable of flying and chasing after both Final Form Mira and Dark Broly. This leads us back to point II, where after training half a year with Xeno Goku, he became so strong that he was capable of flying through time and reacting in combat, blocking an attack from to save Xeno Goku
IV. Mechikabura's Chaos Ball/Black Hole
1. 's Black Hole/Chaos Ball sucked everything (past, present and future) into himself (which is why it has Low 1-C range). We have two characters, Xeno Trunks and Chronoa, both reacting to its action before they were even caught in it. Returning to three points above, both Xeno Trunks and Chronoa demonstrated the ability to physically fly beyond time and now they reacted to a black hole that sucked everything on Low 1-C scale (past, present and future, all of time) which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed.
2. The Black Hole was also created from Mechikabura's own power with a portion of it boosting Towa into a Demon God, allowing her to fly beyond space-time and go after the Dark Dragon Balls. He similarly amped the other Demons into Demon Gods, and they replicated the same feat by Towa, like when Gravy and Putine in the second album reached the Cell Games era, and when Xeno Dabura reached Buu's era where he was absorbed by Xeno Buu. This further solidifies the speed feats.
V. CC Goku flew from the future to the past
The explanation is in the album, in short, similar to the Dark Dragon Balls feat in Dark Demon Realm Mission, , in his injured state, flew from the Prison Planet back to Zeno's Palace, with the Prison Planet being stated by Fu to not exist in the time of CC Goku and in the future instead, which made Goku's home time period the past of the Prison Planet, and he flew from the Prison Planet back to Zeno's Palace, and met the Grand Priest, which means he physically moved from the future back to the past
VI. Instant Transmission and Dr.W
The explanation is in the album. In short, in Dragon Ball Heroes (where Dragon Ball Z movies such as The Return of Cooler which featured Metal Cooler in are canon to), Instant Transmission is treated as movement that is passing through a different space that transcends time. This statement at least can result in Infinite speed, however, further inspection shows that Instant Transmission is not only instant teleportation, but it also allows for travel to back and forth from the future to the past, or vice versa. Now IT alone isn't granting any speed ratings, however, characters reacting and keeping up with it via speed is another story, which in this case we have a character called Dr.W who moved so fast that Xeno Vegeta stated he moved at Instant Transmission levels of speed, which previously we established IT can time travel, thus this feat places Dr.W at Immeasurable speed due to being able to move as fast as IT = Time Travel, and later Xeno Vegeta kept up with him with sheer speed
VII. CC Goku outspeeds future sight
, who with her is capable of , couldn't . So why this is an Immeasurable speed feat? Simple. Future sight means you look into the future, the fate of your opponents, thus regardless of how fast they are, their future is going to be seen, their fate is going to be looked at, they can't escape, yet CC Goku escaped the future sight with his speed alone, which means he is so fast that he escaped the future, the fate itself, which requires Immeasurable speed to do, since Immeasurable speed allows users to move beyond time, which time is the consequences of events, cause and effect, past and future. CC Goku's movement is so fast that he escaped the future which also means he escaped the flow of time, timestream itself
VIII. Agios flying around history
Pretty explicit, Agios and her Warriors in Black Clothes stated that they're gonna "tour" around history, similar to Chronoa and the Xeno Warriors feat back in Dark Demon Realm Saga
IX. The Shadow Dragon Balls
Similarly to the Dark Dragon Balls, the Shadow Dragon Balls in the Evil Dragon Mission of DBH are capable of physically flying away into different eras of time. This feat would obviously scale to the Evil Dragon Mission versions of the Shadow Dragons who are the of the Shadow Dragon Balls, the Evil Dragon Mission GT cast who can keep up with them, who is superior to most of the Shadow Dragons, and who later defeats a stronger Broly
X. Space-Time
In Dragon Ball Heroes (and also Dragon Ball Xenoverse), space-time also means , the or . They are also of
Meaning that when these characters mentioned above have flown beyond space-time, they haven't just flown beyond some vague space-time, they have actually flown beyond time, the time axis, history and the linear, ordinary flow of time itself to reach a different era/point in time. And they needed a speed boost to do so, further proving that they indeed qualify for Immeasurable speed
Higher Degree of Immeasurable speed
Due to possessing , with a 2nd higher temporal dimension, DBH characters are capable of moving beyond this higher temporal dimension, thus their speed is that of a higher degree of immeasurable speed due to bypassing the second higher time axis which is superior to the first lower time axis
Debunking some common counter-arguments
This section is for debunking common counter-arguments that are often associated with Immeasurable speed
1. It's just Time Travel
- Demons themselves are already capable of time travel via either teleportation-like ability or portals. It makes no sense if they can already time travel, and still needing a boost in power and speed to go after something.
- Dragon Balls have always flown physically. This is a universal mechanic in Dragon Ball, and even the animated short PV also proves this idea. Even the characters in the previous scans are using words suggesting that the Dark Dragon Balls flew away physically, beyond time.
- Immeasurable speed also allows for time travel. Since Immeasurable speed treats time as distance, time travel is one of its properties.
2. It's just hax
- Scans visually show otherwise, as characters are shown flying physically.
- Secondly, assuming it is hax for the sake of arguments, nothing says that hax can't grant a speed rating. Same with Mechikabura's Black Hole, sure you can say it is hax, but nothing says that characters that reacted to that hax can't have a speed rating.
3. They can't boost their speed up to level like that
- Trunks trained with Xeno Goku half a year, elevating his power from similar levels to his anime counterpart, up to Low 1-C, so speed can be boosted up to an insane level like it's completely normal. Same with Frieza, his power after fusing with one DDB was elevated to Xeno Goku's level, likewise with Xeno Buu, so speed boosts like that are completely normal.
- Second, VSBW Terminology, as the name implies, just belongs to VSBW. In the authors/developers minds and in their intentions, they make characters capable of performing such feats. They don't follow our terminology.
4. But don't they later use portals though?
- Utilizing portals is not a contradiction to Immeasurable speed, it is a matter of convenience and utility. Similarly to how in the "canon" continuity of Dragon Ball Super, the main cast consistently use that they could easily cross with their own raw speed if they wanted to.
5. But didn't Hit's Time-Skip affect them?
- In fiction, it is possible for superior Time hax to affect beings with Immeasurable speed. Hit has always been capable of evolving his abilities to new heights, and in SDBH his evolution is arguably superior to his "canon" counterpart, as he is now capable of to the heavily suppressed Jiren who resisted his time-abilities easily.
6. But didn't Chronoa and Trunks use the Crack of Time to go to these different eras?
- No. They went there to get to a safe place away from the demons. The Crack of Time has not been established in-verse to function this way, and it's actually even contradicted to work in this manner. In Xenoverse 2, when Towa tried to trap the Time Patrol in the Crack of Time, , . With even experienced time travelers getting trapped inside the Crack of Time without any means of escape, this majorly contradicts the Crack of Time functioning in a manner where it could be used for time travel purposes.
Conclusion
After combining everything it is very clear that the Dragon Ball Heroes characters qualify for Immeasurable speed due to being able to fly beyond space-time to different eras of time with their raw speed. However, we still need to make clear of what continuities can have Immeasurable speed, since DBH alone contains many continuities in itself.
The ones who get Immeasurable speed
The late stage of God Mission is the foundation that kicks off the narration of Mainstream Dragon Ball Heroes/Super Dragon Ball Heroes, thus some characters from this stage can be backscaled.
- Mainstream DBH/SDBH is where the all the feats and statements come from, thus they will have Immeasurable speed, with base , , , and being the baseline and all others scaling from them.
- Super Dragon Ball Heroes: World Mission is branched off from the Dark Empire Saga of the Mainstream, which is after the Dark Dragon Ball feat is shown, and the Time Patrol cast are from the mainstream itself along with the Dark Dragon Ball Warriors, thus World Mission's character will also have Immeasurable speed, like Beat and . There are also some other World Mission characters who would scale, but they don't have a profile/key, like Xeno Goku or Xeno Vegeta.
The ones who don't get Immeasurable speed
- Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultimate Mission X also will not scale since the game branched off from a different event, in the early stages of the God Missions and before the events of the God Missions that lead to Super Dragon Ball Heroes Dark Demon Realm Mission, which means before the Dark Dragon Ball feats.
- Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission also won't scale, since they are a spin-off of DBH Jaaku Mission, way before Super Dragon Ball Heroes Dark Demon Realm Mission.
- Lastly Dragon Ball Xenoverse. Despite sharing the same multiverse with DBH, it will not scale due to being its own continuity and not canon to DBH. However this could change in the future.
References
- ↑ SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 2
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 6
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 7
- SDBH 9th Anniversary Guidebook
- Super Dragon Ball Heroes Interview
- SDBH Arcade Big Bang Mission
- SDBH 8th Anniversary Guidebook
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 4
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 5
- SDBH Arcade Dark Empire Saga
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 16
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 17
- SDBH Universe Mission Manga Chapter 1
- SDBH UM Promotional Anime Guidebook
- SDBH UM Promotional Anime Episode 6
- SDBH UM Promotional Anime Episode 8
- ↑ SDBH Ultra God Mission Manga Chapter 10
- Dragon Ball Heroes
- DBH Arcade Evil Dragon Mission 1
- DBH Evil Dragon Mission Animated Trailer 1
- DBH Evil Dragon Mission Animated Trailer 6
- V-Jump January 2014
- SDBH Dark Demon Realm Manga Chapter 11
- ↑ Dragon Ball Xenoverse
- SDBH Ultra God Mission Manga Chapter 3
Discussions
What's your opinion on this?
